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In February of 2014, Crimea was the legitimate territory of Ukraine. And Russia invaded and occupied it. It also sent troops into eastern Ukraine to stoke an insurgency.

You're free to explain why you feel Russia was justified in going to war against Ukraine, but let's be clear that this is what you're doing.

nan said:

PVW said:

nan said:

PVW said:

Russia invaded Ukraine on February 27, 2014.

Ok, so you are talking about Crimea, which I'm guessing we have different opinions about, right?  

What is your view on this?

Go back through this thread. You'll see that I've consistently referred to Russia's actions of 2022 as an escalation of the war it began in 2014.

WHAT????  You are so Russophobic that I tend to glaze over your habit of blaming the Russians for everything.   You are saying the Russians began the war in 2014?  How?

By invading and occupying Ukrainian territory. Most people have no problem recognizing that as war.

nan said:

DaveSchmidt said:

To ask it another way: You wouldn’t make each and every one of those concessions, if you had to, in order to save all the lives that have been lost on both sides of the war?

Would you be OK with Russia or China overthrowing our government and installing a puppet?  Do you think it we should just be passive and accept that because someone might get hurt?  How would you feel if your country was taken over for the benefit of another country?

I remember when people thought Trump was a Russian puppet and they were pretty pissed off.  

Absolutely not.  If Russia or China attempted a coup using NGOs and their intelligence agencies, I think the only rational defense would be to invade Canada.

got the QB. It's been a good week :-)

mtierney said:

Meanwhile, back in another NYC courtroom, this is happening…

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/13/nyregion/jury-selection-menendez-trial.html?unlocked_article_code=1.sk0.DT5n.Vti3R1DuVDuJ&smid=url-share

Gold bars were found, concealed into the lining of his suits — really?!

Let everyone know when you find a defense of Menendez in his current legal difficulties by a poster on MOL, or a local Democratic politician, or a NJ Democratic politician, or a national Democratic politician.

I did. He's a liar and those who believe him are dupes. Take, for instance, where he talks about WWII -- he conveniently skips over the fact that the war began, not with Germany attacking the USSR, but with the USSR and Germany allied and jointly attacking Poland. In the context of Ukraine, his talking about millions killed very pointedly skips over the millions killed by the USSR.

His speech is full of similar dishonest omissions and misdirections. It's a speech that relies on his audience's ignorance and credulity.

Russia invaded Ukraine on February 27, 2014.

nan said:

nohero said:

Yes, it's "old news" that the reason for the "special military operation" in 2022 was to overthrow the Ukrainian government and install one subservient to Moscow. The news link was added just in case there was more disinformation saying otherwise.

No. They wanted to end the war and had a tentative agreement until Boris Johnson showed up in April.  

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/09/02/diplomacy-watch-why-did-the-west-stop-a-peace-deal-in-ukraine/

If they wanted to overthrow the Ukrainian government they would have done that.  They wanted to demilitarize the west in a slow grinding way and that's what they have done.  Ukraine is out of men and the weapons are scarce.

Russia invaded because they wanted to end the war? That doesn't make any sense. Russia invaded and tried (but failed) to make it into Kyiv. It was in the news and everything.

nan said:

drummerboy said:

what other choice did he have?

are you effing kidding us?

if he had chosen peace and not war, what do you think would have happened to Russia? To RUSSIA, not to him.

Learn the difference.

Russia would have been destroyed. 

Exactly how.

No shots would have been fired.

No Russian territory would have been occupied.  Ukrainian territory occupied by Russia would have remained occupied.

You are effectively mocking countries that have undergone real existential crises and survived - Poland, Germany, the Baltics, Finland, etc., etc.

Some people delight in constructing paths of breadcrumbs leading backwards from historical events and then proclaiming that said historical event was inevitable.  People float the myth that the Treaty of Versailles was the cause of WW 2 and that FDR knew that the Japanese would attack Pearl Harbor.  

These arguments about the cause of war in Ukraine are no different.  The reality is that there were many decision points along the trail from 1994 to the present when different decisions could have been made that would have changed history.  The U.S. could have done some things differently.  Putin could have made different decisions.  I reject the argument that the U.S. is unilaterally responsible for the war.